Fuel (The Future)

Discussion in 'General Automotive Discussion' started by XDM45, Sep 5, 2015.

< Previous Thread | Next Thread >
Page 2 of 6

  1. FTZ HAIC Staff Member Oregon Chapter Founding Member

    The potshot calling the kettle black.

    These are not from any of your alternative energy funded sources, nor Israeli funded sources (who want to cut off income to oil producers in the Middle East), both of which were involved in your "documentary".

    Predicted in 2008:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2430252/

    http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/article/2008/04/20080411130214dmslahrellek0.9818994.html
    Rioting starting to begin 2008:

    http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/mobile/2011/03/201103071213400.2498699.html
    In the 2007–2008 period, the spike in global food prices contributed to food insecurity worldwide and civil unrest in several nations, and generated appeals for food aid from 36 countries, the State Department said in a fact sheet.

    http://www.ers.usda.gov/media/126752/wrs1103.pdf
    Most of the long-term trends in agricultural production and consumption that contributed to the 2002-06 price increases and the 2007-08 price spike also contributed to the recent price surge, including global growth in population and per capita incomes, increasing world per capita consumption of animal products, rising energy prices and growing global biofuel production, depreciation of the U.S. dollar, and slower growth in agricultural productivity.

    Fast forward to 2011...
    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/print/country/countrypdf_ts.pdf
    CIA accessment about Tunisia, food prices a factor. 2011

    http://www.osti.gov/scitech/biblio/22110315
    Foodsecurity and the right to food should be priority concerns in the design of any biofuel policy. Governments should adopt the principle: biofuels shall not compromise food security and therefore should be managed so that food access or the resources necessary for the production of food, principally land, biodiversity, water and labour are not put at risk.

    And it is cutting out share of human food production:
    "Although growth in global biofuel production has slowed from rates exceeding 30 percent per year in 2006-08 (fi g. 10), overall increases continue and the shares of grain used for ethanol and vegetable oils used for biodiesel, relative to total use, continued to climb."
    "As a result of higher corn prices, U.S. corn exports and feed demand for corn have generally declined."
    "In 2010/11, U.S. corn for ethanol is projected to account for 37 percent of total use, compared with 31 percent in 2008/09."
    http://www.ers.usda.gov/media/126752/wrs1103.pdf

    So whether or not you like it, food prices are a contributing factor to civil unrest, and biofuels have contributed to rising food prices.


    Corn consumption in the Middle East and North Africa. Notice the huge drops in imports of it from the USA beginning in 2007, around the time more ethanol was really ramping up:
    ImageGen.png #ad


    It would effect us, we'd be out by 27%, but this nation could survive a 27% decrease in supply.

    Tell that to the CIA, FDA, USDA and numerous other government sources who have studied it.

    Look, you get real. It's not a zero sum game. Animal feed impacts animal protein production. Who consumes this animal protein? Lions, tigers and bears.... or humans?

    31% of the grain is left over after ethanol production. And as higher ethanol output per bushel is achieved, there is less by-product left over. The ethanol doesn't magically appear from the grain without taking something out of it.

    Iowa, yeah... there's a non-biased source.

    More public debt, suckling on the government teat of subsidies. How's that worked out with Evergreen Solar, SpectraWatt, Solyndra, Beacon Power, Nevada Geothermal, SunPower, First Solar, Babcock and Brown, EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1, Amonix, Fisker Automotive, Abound Solar, A123 Systems, Willard and Kelsey Solar Group, Johnson Controls, Brightsource, ECOtality, Raser Technologies, Energy Conversion Devices, Mountain Plaza, Inc., Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company, Range Fuels, Thompson River Power, Stirling Energy Systems, Azure Dynamics, GreenVolts, Vestas, LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power, Nordic Windpower, Navistar, Satcon, Konarka Technologies Inc., and Mascoma Corp.?

    Billions in subsidies have resulted in a whopping 0.2% of USA energy production.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2015
    FTZ HAIC, Sep 6, 2015
    #16

  2. FTZ HAIC Staff Member Oregon Chapter Founding Member

    Hmmm... so electric cars aren't terribly cost effective, right?
     
    FTZ HAIC, Sep 6, 2015
    #17

  3. FTZ HAIC Staff Member Oregon Chapter Founding Member

    There's also been increased drilling in the Gulf, there would be more if not for the Obama administration. And the Saudis... recently had to issue a bond due to the inability to absorb the costs to their own economy. Maybe the smaller frackers without the cash reserves won't make to the other side of the feedback loop... but others will, and the market will consolidate as all markets do. The economic feedback loop: the less they produce, the more impact on raising prices... which in turn increases production. Those with larger pockets will survive.

    And all the while, the USA keeps bringing more non-fracking oil resources online. Yeah, the Saudis are doing so well with this that they opened their stock market to the international market in June to spur investments in order to diversify away from oil, as they are seeing debt to GDP ratios go up and up. Expected to be 20% in the near future.
     
    FTZ HAIC, Sep 6, 2015
    #18

  4. KW5413 Vet Zone Texas Chapter Founding Member

    Clux, are you saying that they are not what they are fracked up to be? :)
     
    KW5413, Sep 6, 2015
    #19
    FTZ HAIC likes this.

  5. XDM45 Vet Zone Founding Member

    I'll tell you what I don't like........Our over-involvement in the Middle East based largely on our reliance on oil.

    Gulf War I
    Gulf War II
    Afghanistan
    The ongoing 'War on Terror'

    How many hundreds of billions of $$$ again? How many lives lost? How many lives scarred and maimed?

    Unless you think we're involved over there because we think Arabs are cute........

    Excuse me, but all your links and all your 'proof' about food rioting in different Middle East countries doesn't mean s--t to me compared to the damage we're doing TO OURSELVES based on our reliance on oil......and the rights of 'food'.....are ridiculous in comparison.

    I'd say they know more about the crop than most places....

    Be that as it may.....

    So....what you're saying is......"full speed ahead on oil.....damn the torpedoes.....keep the flow coming no matter the cost"???

    Of course you ignore subsidization of the oil industry........

    Yup. Based on your carpet bombing with links and lists of alternative energy companies running into trouble with subsidies......meant to overwhelm, I guess........I'd say 'drama queen' is apt. :rolleyes:

    Hell......I don't know why Exxon Mobil (et al) pays millions for lobbyists. They've got guys like you to run interference. :cool:

    Again. I don't give a flying f--k about the rioting in other countries. My first concern is with THIS country. Period. If we can do this with switchgrass or other crops (or sugar beets for that matter), I'm fine with that. The fact is, there's no real choice in this country........It's all about the oil (with a few exceptions, of course.....).
     
    XDM45, Sep 6, 2015
    #20

  6. XDM45 Vet Zone Founding Member

    Depends.

    Tesla went whole-hog with making 'luxury' cars. And if you check out the Tesla home page....that's exactly what they are. Luxury cars. From the frame to all the goodies to the performance. Luxury cars through and through.

    As things stand, it would take a long time to recoup the added cost of the purchase....with or without the $7,500 tax credit. But you would essentially be paying ZERO for fuel. So long as you can zip on over to a free Tesla-built charging station (charging at home obviously would increase your power bill.......I'm not really sure how much).

    Cost effective? I don't know......How many servicemens' bodies did it cost to fuel all the dino burners on FTZ????

    What do you consider important with 'cost'?
     
    XDM45, Sep 6, 2015
    #21

  7. clux Article Contributor Founding Member

    When the Saudis lowered the price of oil last year something they didn't expect happened. The frackers had a lot of new well coming online and when the price dropped they increased production hoping to cover lower price with market share.

    A year later total rigs drilling are down 58%.

    Traditional wells production in the U.S. will slide to 50% their initial production in a couple of years after drilling but then produce near that level for 20 years. Fracked wells will decline 60-70% in their first year.

    You can talk all you want but this low price is a production bubble, don't bet on it lasting.
     
    clux, Sep 6, 2015
    #22

  8. clux Article Contributor Founding Member

    Not really practical because the crop as it leaves the field is 70%+ water, and it's pretty perishable. Too expensive to grow and transport for any distance to be useful on a very large scale.

    We still need to get cellulosic ethanol process perfected on a production scale for ethanol, butanol, or methanol to be a really viable alternative IMO.
     
    clux, Sep 6, 2015
    #23
    XDM45 likes this.

  9. KW5413 Vet Zone Texas Chapter Founding Member

    Then there is Obama's Iran.
     
    KW5413, Sep 6, 2015
    #24

  10. FTZ HAIC Staff Member Oregon Chapter Founding Member

    How is it that so many countries buy oil without warring? Look at how we are everywhere, not just in oil rich nations. We use our war production instead of diplomacy. The military industry can't remain profitable unless their output is replaced often. Seems to be a common theme with organizations which survive on the use of force, manufacture a need to use the force, then lament about how it has to be used.
    Hunger and under nutrition kills over 3 million children annually. Does it matter?
    Where did I say that? What I am saying is the government sugar teat route to force their preferred solutions on the marketplace isn't the route to take.
    No, I did not. I am against ALL subsidies. And let's take a look at this... since you believe the liberal subsidy rhetoric.
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidbl...tax-provisions-are-not-subsidies-for-big-oil/
    Hmmmm.... so far, you've called me a coward and a drama queen.
    Who needs the Israelis, coal producers, corn growers and natural gas producers funding "documentaries" on the down low when they have guys like you?
    Why do you always end up resorting to "colorful" metaphors?
     
    FTZ HAIC, Sep 6, 2015
    #25

  11. XDM45 Vet Zone Founding Member

    Last I checked, we weren't alone in Gulf I, Gulf II, and Afghanistan........

    Caused by ethanol production? :rolleyes:

    That's been going on for a long time, Sport.

    You implied it with your rosy appraisal of U.S. oil production....and your tendency to say the word 'can't' without giving any solutions yourself......

    Keep living that narrative, Rush........

    Only a drama queen in this thread. Get past it.......:)


    You forgot nuclear.....

    However it's funny as Hell you castigate those industries (well...except for Israel) which DO exploit resources we have in abundance........

    And you shake your pom-poms and do cartwheels for an industry whose resources are preponderantly controlled by countries which either don't like us too much.....or which are 'fragile' countries needing the presence of Uncle Sam and it's servicemen......

    It's what I do.

    Instead of crying over starving kids in Africa.....or rioting Tunisians and Egyptians....you might want to be just a little more chauvinistic about our OWN country.......and the money and blood we spend needlessly on a resource we should perhaps, at least, not rely on so damned much.
     
    XDM45, Sep 6, 2015
    #26

  12. KW5413 Vet Zone Texas Chapter Founding Member

    Don't forget "Rush"...which could be worse.


    In all honesty Steve, that is often the reason you lose audience, allies and threads.
     
    KW5413, Sep 6, 2015
    #27

  13. FTZ HAIC Staff Member Oregon Chapter Founding Member

    Bingo!
     
    FTZ HAIC, Sep 7, 2015
    #28

  14. XDM45 Vet Zone Founding Member

    In all honesty, I don't care......(see below)

    And what threads have I lost, Keith? How many pages has that one (gold standard) gone??? Maybe it'll even get bumped again at some point......

    All because I called you a drama queen for bringing up food rioting in Tunisia and Egypt.......

    You question my sources.......I question yours (or the relevance)........You trot out 3-million starving children.......I re-iterate the drama queen aspect of it........You mention the 'coward' thing from another thread (which was a qualified statement anyway.....)

    Look. You're the king of debate tactics. I remember that from your time on FTE. I'm fine with that. But enough with the 'poor little old me' crap when someone uses tactics on you......

    How many times have you thrown the 'fainting couch' and 'crying towel' tactics at someone you were debating, Ken? Hmmm?

    If you guys can't take it..........And it is pretty tame........(leave the rest of the sentence hanging).........

    And if you can't bring alternatives to the table.......

    John mentioned other bio-matter. Clux brought up "cellulosic ethanol process".........You brought up rioting Tunisians and starving children........

    1....2.....3.......GO!
     
    XDM45, Sep 7, 2015
    #29

  15. KW5413 Vet Zone Texas Chapter Founding Member

    I knew you couldn't take it Steve... Pansy ass. You need to wear a longer skirt. Maybe you wouldn't show your ass so much. F-ing Drama Queen should be embedded In your signature. Its already tattooed on your forehead. Is it on your badge, too?

    You are so full of yourself, chit spills out of your ears when you walk and your head gets so far up your ass that you couldn't find your princess panties with both hands, a flashlight and spot-on GPS. You are so single-minded you can't even defend your position(s) without character assassination and you're so frigging dense you can't see that the only character you are killing is your own.

    You take great enjoyment in being the school yard bully, yet, cry like a spoiled, punk- ass, brat when someone pokes your stupid lame ass ideas in the nose. Yeah, real tuff guy. Hell, you probably think you are being manly just because you wake up with a piss hard-on. You simply just can't handle the pressure, Sport.

    Web Rage kills, Skippy. Better go see a doctor before you have a heart attack.

    But, what the hell.... You're family... Can't kill ya.

    Your turn.
     
    KW5413, Sep 7, 2015
    #30
Page 2 of 6
< Previous Thread | Next Thread >
Loading...
Similar Threads - Fuel (The Future) Forum Date
Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars General Automotive Discussion Jun 7, 2016
2 Stroke Fuel. General Automotive Discussion Jan 6, 2016
Loading...
virtuoso